The Fear Project: Understanding and Overcoming Ski Anxiety for Moms

In this episode, we tackle a topic that's been the elephant in the room of the ski world: fear. We sit down with Dr. Carol Porter, a Snowsport England coach with 20 years of experience and a PhD in pedagogical philosophies, and Kimberley Kay, author of the beloved "Ski A to Z" book and advocate for women in snow sports.

Together, they reveal findings from their Fear Project research study that surveyed women globally about anxiety and fear in skiing. The results are eye-opening: 62% of women report that fear or anxiety affects their enjoyment when skiing, with mothers experiencing the highest levels of fear. The conversation explores why women's participation in skiing is dropping below 40% in the US, the unique fears mothers face on the slopes, and practical, research-backed strategies for rebuilding confidence after injury or setbacks.

From breathing techniques to choosing quieter resorts to working with mindset coaches, Carol and Kimberley offer actionable advice for any ski mom who's lost her nerve or joy on the mountain. They also share exciting news about their presentation at the inaugural World Women's Snow Sports Summit and their ongoing work to make the ski industry more responsive to women's needs through visual safety education and industry advocacy.

Resources

• Website: Kimberley Kay  
• Website: Dr Carol Porter: https://jeaniusski.com/ski-fearless/

"Suddenly having responsibility for more people who don't have the same awareness of what could go wrong, and then knowing that if anything happens to me, well, who's gonna get them to school?" — Dr. Carol Porter

"No one can learn when they're scared. It's just not possible." — Dr. Carol Porter

"I'm a great advocat

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Transcript

Nicole: Welcome back to the Ski Moms Podcast. It's season five, and we're hitting the slopes. We're sharing real, unfiltered stories of motherhood on the snow. From conquering the bunny hill with toddlers to squeezing in your own powder days, this season celebrates every type of ski mom.

Thanks for joining us. We've got a great season lined up, and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

Ski Moms. Today, we're diving into a topic that often doesn't get talked about in the ski world, but many of us feel it. Fear.

Whether it's fear of injury,

fear of falling behind, or fear that comes from the weight of keeping our families safe on the slopes.

Carol: Ugh.

Nicole: I feel this.

These emotions are real, and they can quietly chip away at our confidence and joy.

In this episode, we're joined by two incredible women who are working to change that. Dr. Carol Porter and Kimberly Kim are opening up the conversation around fear in snow sports, especially for women and moms.

So let me welcome my guests. We've got Kimberly Kay.

She is an author and illustrator. We love her Ski A to Z book. It's been in our gift guide many times,

and she's an advocate for women in snow sports.

And we've got Dr. Carol Porter, who is a snow sport England coach with 20 years of coaching experience,

and she has a PhD in pedagogical philosophies. So welcome to Dr. Porter and Kimberly, but I'm hoping we get to call you Carol.

Carol: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Nicole: Well, welcome, ladies. So we have so much to talk about in our time, but we always start with an origin story.

Where and when did you fall in love with skiing? So why don't we stop start with you, Carol.

Carol: So I was 8 years old,

and my dad went as a parent help on a school ski trip with my older brother,

and they came back absolutely smitten. So that was it. We had no choice,

and we went to Austria for two weeks, and we've just skied ever since.

I love it, absolutely love it.

Nicole: And a quick question is, is skiing culture and taking a school trip, is that part of the culture where you grew up, or was that extraordinary?

Carol: No, that was really unusual. I grew up in the southwest of England,

where in my memory, I think they've had about three flakes of snowfall on one occasion.

So for a school to decide to take a group away to the Alps to go skiing, that was really unusual. It was completely beyond the experience of anybody on the trip.

Nicole: Excellent. So somebody at that school was a skier.

Carol: Someone wanted to ski.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Nicole: And what about you, Kimberly?

Kimberly: So, yeah, so I grew up in Rosendale, and there we have a dry ski slope which had just opened just a few years ago,

but it was actually the same year that I was born.

And so, so that was kind of like the first experience of skiing, but it was very different from when we then went to Austria, to Meyerhofen,

and that was where I fell in love with skiing. And we were, we were blessed with blue sky days,

great snow, and there was really good,

really good facilities and conditions and a kindergarten for children. And so that was definitely where. Where I fell in love with skiing.

Nicole: Yeah, the dry ski slopes are new to me. We had Shemi on. Shemi Alcott on the podcast, and she was trying to explain them to us. But it definitely sounds like something where you can get started but maybe not really fall in love with skiing.

Does that feel right?

Carol: It's. It's a good environment for teaching and for getting a first experience and learning to ski before you go on a ski holiday.

And as a dyed in the wool ski nut. Now, if I had to go between seasons without skiing somewhere, anywhere,

that would be to the detriment of my overall life enjoyment.

Nicole: Okay, so you two were on parallel paths, and then somehow you connected to start the Fear Project research. How did you connect and where did you connect?

Kimberly: So we were actually at the ski slop that I mentioned earlier, Ski Rossendale. And we were on adjacent stalls at 50th Street Celebration Day.

And so that's where I first learned about Carol's women's program at Ski Rossendale.

And so that's where we first connected. And then I had some thoughts around fear and anxiety. I worked on Ski A to Z and that was very much about the information barrier that can stand in the way of people.

And then I became more conscious. I was kind of going a bit deeper and then started to think about fear and anxiety as a barrier for people for snow sports.

Didn't really know where this project should go, but I felt very, very inclined to speak to Carol about it and to sort of start some dialogue. And then I didn't really know where it was going to go, so I mentioned it to Carol.

Carol, over to you.

Carol: So, yeah, completely independently, we came at this from different angles.

So working with a women's ski group at Rosendale,

I constantly see capable skiers refusing particular piece because they're scared of it or women I've seen ski on mountains abroad. Back at the homeslope in Rosendale, say, oh, no, I Can't go to the top, I can't go to the top.

That's where the good skiers go from.

So what was going on? They were clearly afraid. I didn't understand what the fear was and needed to know more about it. So Kim published a blog post about ski fear, which I saw and then thought, I've got to speak to her,

we need to do something about this. And coincidentally, at the same time, I was looking for a research project for my,

my level four coaching qualification. I wanted something really meaty to get into. So it all just. The stars aligned and we got together and made it happen.

Nicole: Ladies, tell us about the study. When did it take place and who did you survey?

Carol: After initial conversations,

we designed an online questionnaire which went out sort of spring last year. We kept it open for about four months and through all Kim's contacts,

it went out in all sorts of trade, press and websites. And we, although we wanted data for UK women, we actually ended up with global data.

It was amazing, the response that we got, it was really gratifying.

Kimberly: Yeah. So it was through the social media channels and I think the thing was we, we sort of, we had some hunches about what women's fears were but wanted to really get some facts and if we got the facts then we could start to address what, what the specific fears were that people were experiencing and that actually it was quite,

for me, it was quite different from what I thought that it would be, what the findings were. So it was really important to have that factual starting point. And because of Carol's research background,

she was, she was an ideal person then to be able to, you know, to pulled together, you know,

she knows about surveys, about data and so it was a really good fit for us to, you know, to do, to do the project as the starting point to then, you know, kind of all, everything that's led to since.

Carol: So just being a bit academic about it now, bit nerdy. So it was a two pronged approach. We started with the online survey to get quantitative data and see what the trends were.

And then I drilled down and did some more qualitative data analysis with a focus group of women from Rosendale to get their stories and hear more about the experiences that underpin the numeric data that came back through the survey.

Nicole: Let's talk about one of the big findings. 62% of women said that fear and or anxiety affects their enjoyment when skiing. Did that number surprise you?

Carol: No.

Now, my experience of watching women that I work with in Rosendale and also being on Trips away with friends and also with the groups of those women.

I expected a lot to report fear. Also, women are more likely to report fear than men might be. So no, I wasn't surprised about those numbers.

Nicole: So we see these findings,

62% of women say that fear and anxiety play a real role affecting their enjoyment. And we also see when we look at the participation numbers, that women's participation is dipping.

It's now below 40% in the US and dropping. And I'm concerned about that and I'm looking at your survey and seeing is this a factor as to why women are dropping out and not getting their fulsome experience with skiing and maybe sticking with the sport?

Kimberly: Yeah.

Carol: So we started by going to the Ski Club of Great Britain for their participation data. They hadn't actually asked for it previously. They did in response to our conversation with them and they also disaggregated it by age.

So for 18 to 30, 30 to 40, 40 to 50, those sort of 10 year age gaps,

we saw that between 45 and 55 there's almost parity,

but either side of that it really drops off, it's like a bell curve. And either end it's 80, 20 men to women with sort of 60, 40, 70, 30 in the middle and like I say, approaching parity at about age 50.

So societally there's all sorts of stuff going on behind this.

So women are more likely to be carers, so when in families, when they have children,

women are more likely to stay at home and look after them while men carry on with their boys trips.

And in later life it's women that are more likely,

though not exclusively to have care of elderly parents.

So there are many, many things that impact on why women may not ski in the numbers that men do. Fear is definitely a significant factor in there, but there's other stuff going on as well.

Nicole: And when we were doing a deeper dive into your reporting, you made the observation that mothers seem to experience most fear. Well, ta da. You know,

that does seem like something that I can relate to.

I do know there was, you know, the fear of like losing your kid on the mountain,

someone running them over was palpable for me. So I remember when I was skiing with my littles, my husband and I would flank them, you know, I would be in the back, he would be in the front.

And it was like, well somebody's going to take them out, they're going to take us out first.

And it's irrational, I know to some degree,

but tell me a little bit about this mom specific fear.

Carol: So I so relate to what you say there. And you see all the time in families. Dad's at the front, mum's at the back. Dad just shoots off, setting the pace, the direction, all those decisions, he just.

He just takes off. He goes, kids in the middle. Mum focused entirely on the children. We lost my daughter one time.

She was about 6 or 7.

Nicole: No judgment, girl. It happens.

Carol: You know those times where so many peas come down together and there's a melee of people and then loads of different directions off the other side.

Husband at the front, kids in the middle, me at the back. My husband skied head to foot in black, and he thought he stood out from the crowd in black.

He so didn't. Anyway, my daughter just latched onto the wrong big bloke wearing black.

And we didn't realize,

and she just hadn't heard the instruction to stop at a particular place.

And she just carried on following this big bloke wearing black until we realized, oh, and then we're just looking around for a little dot in pink following.

And then my husband. I looked after my son. Husband shot off, rescued my daughter, brought her back. That was a moment I care.

I don't care to repeat.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Carol: Suddenly having responsibility for more people who don't have the same awareness of what could go wrong,

and then knowing that if anything happens to me,

well, who's gonna get them to school? Who's gonna take them to.

To Scouts, to Guides, to Beavers, whatever it might be. There's so much else that depends on our health and wellbeing.

We're relied upon by our families, by workplace.

If we're a sole parent or sole earner and we're injured, can't work, that could impact on income and paying the rent, whatever it might be. So, yeah, I fully get that.

Women reported as well as ticking boxes. There was a pretext answer.

And so many said, yeah, it all changed for me after I had children.

Such a common thing.

Nicole: Absolutely. And, you know, I was thinking about this anecdotally, I don't have the science, but, you know, women live a lot longer so.

Than. Than men. So maybe we're using that fear for part for good, but when it comes to skiing, I'm not sure that it's so healthy. So we want to talk about ways,

you know, we've identified this. It's real, you know, the fear that we're feeling.

I want to. All who are listening right now, I want to say, I felt it, Carol's felt it, Kimberly's felt it. But we want to talk about how we. I don't know if we're going to make friends with it, but how we take this knowledge and the reality that we're skiing with or snowboarding with and move forward.

How did you use this information to then change how you are interacting with women who are on the slopes?

Carol: So from a coaching point of view,

and I know I would say this, wouldn't I, is always get lessons.

Always get lessons for yourself. Get lessons for your children.

And there are so many different programs available for children to learn and understand about safety on the piste. So do you want me to talk about mums in particular or women?

Nicole: Yeah. So I think when we're talking about your coaching,

Carol,

specifically, so you've got the ability, of course, to. To get messaging out there. Let's talk specifically about encouraging moms first to take lessons themselves, because I do think the more, you know, you do feel a sense of empowerment,

and then maybe separately we can talk about how important it is to get your kids those lessons because it'll take weight off of your shoulders as well.

Carol: Yes. Yeah.

So coming back to ski Rosendale, where I work,

I'm one of the instructors that works on this Saturday morning Kids Club.

And what I see there is a lot of the mums that come and watch the children learning to ski, then approach me about.

So you have a ladies group. Can I learn to ski as well?

So there's actually a really good crossover between mums that don't ski feeling, oh, I need to learn to be able to do this so that I can take my children away.

Or women who ski, they have children.

I want to carry on skiing. They need to learn as well. So there's an excellent crossover there.

Lessons, lessons, lessons. Definitely learn how to do it, learn how to do it well, learn how to do it in a safe environment and with children in particular. Like I say, follow any of these programs.

There's the peace talks, peace cross code, which is a couple of British women working in France.

They've got this whole framework for promoting ski safety awareness for children.

But. And this is more Kim's area about promoting peace safety amongst adults.

Nicole: Yeah, I did want to talk to you about that, Kimberly. You have a very cool project with, or a collaboration, I should say, with a company that produces accessories for skiers.

Tell me a little bit about that and how you took this opportunity to not only be playful, but educational.

Kimberly: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that came up in the survey data was that, like, 47% of people have got a fear or anxiety around visibility and flat light. So working with a goggle manufacturer, Panda Optics,

feels like an important thing because it's something that people can control.

So with all of the findings, there's the things that the people can do themselves about their snow sports and then there's about what we can try and, you know, kind of hope that others will do and we can't control others.

And this is where really the industry can come in and try and provide advice and information so that people are getting the messages, like the snow Code. There's quite a few different versions of it and at one point I thought that one code would be good for kind of all.

You know, there's like a universal code,

but actually different target groups need the messages in different ways.

We had a. Carol and I had a meeting with Chauncey Johnson of Snow angel foundation, and they've got some really good videos. And so, you know, they're targeting probably a different demographic than we are.

But yes, I've worked with Panda Optics goggle manufacturer, and they're putting snow code cards,

which is just little tips on a, on a, on a pocket card in each of their goggle boxes for children for this, for this coming season.

And so, so that's in place. And also each year I create a spread for the school Snow Sports association magazine in the uk,

and that's advice,

tips,

but, but, but done in a very visual way so that hopefully then it makes it more accessible, more, you know, makes basically it kind of sticks a little bit more in people's memories about how to, you know, how to be a good sort of, you know, a good, good member of the snow sports community and not be a problem for other people.

Because when we're learning, it's difficult. We're all, we've all been there,

you know, but then sometimes we can get a bit better and we may then become someone else's problem if we're not aware of what, how,

how we move around on the mountain can kind of impact and affect others.

So. So as with Ski ASA Z, it was trying to, to make it very visual then with these projects, such as the snow code cards. Again, it's trying to do it in visual ways which really make the messages stick.

And hopefully, hopefully we can try and get the industry to, you know, to start to use more of these in these initiatives and to sort of kind of unmask this.

You know, I think fear has been the elephant in the room. You know, people experience fear,

no point, just keep shoving it under the carpet. It needs to be dealt with. And then we can all look at how things need to be in the future so that people don't feel that it doesn't.

It doesn't spoil their time on the snow.

Nicole: Well, I think you're underselling how beautiful your illustrations are. First of all, they are playful and engaging, and I think that's part of the battle that you want to look at this.

It's not some sort of sterile piece of paper that's been added into the purchase. It's. They're so fun. They almost have that sort of like Dr. Seuss quality to them.

There's a lot of movement. Kids gravitate towards them.

They want to look at. It looks like a children's book because you have written a children's book. So when I saw the photos of your educational information, I was like, wow, of course kids are going to want to grab this.

Of course they're going to want to read a poster. Of course they're going to want to look at this because it looks like it's created for them. And, you know, here at the Ski Moms Empire last year,

we sell some merchandise and some T shirts and mugs and sweatshirts.

And every time we ship them, we ship a laminated copy of the skier's code in with the purchase. So the front side, it says Ski Moms. And then on the backside in bright yellow, it says the 10 rules of the skiing safely in the U.S.

they call it the code. So everybody has a pocket size version of that when they make a purchase. And we hope that they, you know, leave it in the car or leave it in a wallet or put it in the ski bag as a little conversation starter with kids.

But yours are even better because they are so cute. And I would love,

as you're saying,

ski manufacturers, it's so easy to slip in a sticker. It's so easy to slip in a little illustration. And I think what you're doing goes a long way.

Carol, I want to jump back to you and talk about rebuilding confidence after maybe a fall, a collision, an injury that maybe didn't involve any of those things.

When woman is coming back from an injury of any sort, she is going to, of course, carry that fear that initially caused it back to the mountain. What would you say to her are some ways to rebuild confidence so she can really enjoy her day on the slopes?

Carol: I think the first thing is for her to be gentle with herself,

to understand what's happened, to own it and just go easy with herself. Don't have any Expectations that she'll be able to pick up from where she was before. Because none of us done.

Kim and I, we've both been injured.

Coming back from injury, it's a long, slow process.

And I remember, yeah, I had a knee injury that when I first put my skis on, it happened to have snowed at Rosendale. So instead of going back to quite slow moving bristles,

I was on a very, very slidy surface and my heart was just pounding. And I was teaching kids as well that day, and I did the wrong thing. I left it and I kept delaying going back to skiing, going back to working.

And I didn't even go for a warmup run before the children arrived that Saturday morning.

I just delayed it as long as I possibly could.

Don't do that.

You need to go back when your physio has signed you off and you're fit and you're able and everything's fine and in place to do it. You're go back.

Just go by yourself. Go quietly. Go with an instructor or with a trusted friend who's not going to push you to do more than you feel able to. And just have small steps.

Start on a very gentle area and just do what you know you can do.

Nice and easy. Don't leap straight in and think, well, I skied reds before. Why can't I now?

Go with what you can do.

Ski where you're comfortable and gradually think things will calm down and you'll be able to do more. But you have to take it slowly.

Nicole: And be patient with yourself when we're talking about that. Patient with yourself. I like the idea of going on your own, you know, when you don't have the obligations of keeping up with friends or working on their timeline.

That's a great tip. I've heard about positive self talk. I've definitely used that before.

And I talk to myself in the third person sometimes when I've gotten myself in some hairy situations, I'm like, okay, Nicole,

this is maybe not where you want to be or you're most comfortable, but we're gonna take it one turn at a time and we're gonna reassess when we get to that sixth tree down there.

Do you have any other, like minds?

Carol: That's precisely what I would recommend. You know, you find yourself somewhere. You, you maybe you're not most comfortable. Being there is where you are and there's no going back up, is there?

You know, you can only go forwards.

So, yeah, park up somewhere safe.

Breathe.

I'm a great advocate of breathing. Just Take time and breathe intentionally and deeply and just feel the coldness of the air as it goes in. And look around.

Just take in the scenery. We pay an awful lot of money to go skiing.

Just take a moment and enjoy the view and acknowledge how you're feeling. Acknowledge your heart rate.

You might be very clammy. You might feel you've broken out into sweat all over. Acknowledge all that stuff and wait and just let it all settle back down again. There are CBT techniques that you can use that you're probably familiar with.

So you start off thinking about five things that you can see and just name them. Count five things. Name five things you can see, four things you can hear,

three things you can actually physically feel, not emotionally feel, physically touch.

Two things that you can smell, and then one thing that you can taste. And all these things done slowly and mindfully will just bring you back into the present moment.

Stop worrying about what might happen and just look at where you are right now.

And then, like you said,

well, I'm going to go from here to that tree down over there. I think that's about four turns.

I'm going to do turn one there, turn two there, turn three there. And then I'll be at the tree and do that and then stop.

Repeat all of the above if necessary, and just reset. Look at the next chunk.

So you might do five turns, you might do three turns. You might only do one turn at a time.

Just put that one turn in and stop and reset.

And when you're ready, put another turn in and stop and reset. Eat chocolate as well.

Always carry snacks. Eat chocolate. Bit of energy really helps to mitigate.

When fear strikes and you go into this panic level of adrenaline surge.

Take on some energy because you just using so much unnecessarily in terms of it's not necessary. Fear's a good thing. It keeps us alive.

But we need the energy we're using to be efficient.

Kimberly: Yeah.

Nicole: I remember when my girls were racing,

I listened to a podcast and they were saying, if you can trick your mind as a racer, to use that,

that energy that you feel at the beginning of a course as like, oh, my body is telling me it's prepared to do something unusual today because I'm feeling all of these big feelings and I'm feeling all of this energy coursing through my body.

And they were saying that it's better to say, like, okay, this is my body telling me it's ready to do something extraordinary today. Or to help me meet this challenge,

use those, harness those feelings.

In a way that are purposeful for you.

Kimberly: Yeah. I read as well that basically the physical responses we feel when we feel afraid are the same as when we feel excited.

But it's just whether our brain thinks it's a positive experience or whether it thinks it's a negative experience.

And I've been kind of playing with this, like, lately where when I feel those feelings,

I try and then, you know, smile and think I'm excited,

you know, so it's basically kind of almost like override it and go, right,

these. I'm feeling these feelings.

I can't control them. But I'm going to say I'm going to tell my. My brain and my body that this is a good thing,

you know, and then I think that that's when I think you can stop kind of sort of feeling heaviness with it,

because it's. It's like it can feel more like excited anticipation rather than this sort of almost like dreadful, really.

And I find something that I found that in Austria when I was a kid, and I do. If I, you know, I'm in a situation where I'm not so comfortable, then I can.

I quite often sing.

And sometimes the. Yeah, the singing gives me some rhythm.

It lightens me up and, you know, and then I just find that it can kind of. It can just give me that. I don't know, just makes me feel more comfortable, makes me feel more relaxed.

And then I definitely feel that if I'm in a situation where, you know, I kind of looking down and I'm thinking, I don't know if I've got the strength for this by singing.

It just. Just relaxes me more. Because you do need to be relaxed. Don't you need to be skiing? You need to be relaxed because that gives you the contact with the snow.

You know, if you. If you tense, you tense up and that's when. Then, you know, you can kind of not be as much in control.

Nicole: Yeah. So we're going to pick short segments to break down this challenge.

We're going to force a smile. I completely agree. I have done that before. We're going to give ourselves a little positive self talk,

and then we're going to sing a catchy tune. You know, I've definitely found.

I remember there were so many times where my kids were singing on the mountain, and it was just so joyful, and you would just tell that they were in the moment and they, you know, whatever popped into their head.

And we've got some sweet videos of that. So trying to tap into that inner child that you're going to help take care of. We're so excited that people were paying attention to your survey and to your results.

In fact, you were invited to present at the World Women's Snow Sports Summit this past spring. This is a big deal that people are paying attention.

Tell me a little bit about the summit first.

Carol: So it was the inaugural summit for the World Women's Snow Sport Organization.

And we're just so excited to have been invited to go along and present our work there,

that was just incredible.

But just to be present in that group of women and part of that community was such a powerful week that we had away and just processing it for weeks afterwards.

Everything that we learned from everybody that was there, it was an amazing experience.

Nicole: So you get invited to go and tell me about some of the other participants there and the conversations that were happening. Why don't you share that, Kimberly?

Kimberly: Yeah, so, I mean, for me, it was a really, really kind of fresh experience. To be on snow with such strong female skiers find that really inspiring. So women that were there, they were either coaches, ski instructors, they might be elite level coaches, they were involved in ski resorts.

So there was a real sort of cross section of women, very much global, you know, global, global attendees.

And so they were on snow technique sessions where people could learn from other people about how to, you know, how they would basically sort of take a clinic for specific things.

And then there was,

there were sessions that were off snow which were more about women's experience of snow sports industry,

but also kind of mindset and techniques. As Carol said, we were fortunate enough to share our, share our research and our data and it sparked really lively debate and it was really interesting to hear how there were so many people that had similar experiences.

And it was. Obviously our findings were very relatable for the women across, across the cross section,

but it was interesting to hear about barriers for women working in snow sports.

And obviously, if women, if there's barriers for women working in snow sports, then those women are not there to be available to help women and mums that want to get in, you know, that want to progress their skiing and their snow sports.

So,

so it was really interesting to hear about those issues and to hear people talking about ways in which those hopefully can be alleviated. So the women have got a greater presence in snow sports industry and so then that women are more engaged and more welcome that there's less of these barriers for women's enjoyment of it.

Nicole: Did you, as you were talking with your peers and you were having these discussions.

Did you notice that there were any differences by country when it came to addressing fear? Did the Austrians say,

we don't even deal with fear in Austria? It's because it's so ingrained in our culture.

Was there geographical differences in how. The way. The way people talked about fear?

Kimberly: I think it was more. It was more about different age groups because obviously there were some younger women instructors who obviously their experience of snow sports industry,

because time is, you know, times changed to a degree, their experience is quite different. And we've got other people that are looking at it sort of from a mum point of view, other women, when we're looking at the impacts of menopause and how kind of, sort of fears and things can pop up when we kind of get to that age.

So there were women from probably 18 through to 80.

So that was really interesting. So I would say that probably it was more around sort of the. The kind of the age differences of people's experiences rather than the countries, really.

I mean, I know that the Austrians did say that basically because most people grow up and skiings all around them, then obviously they're having a very different experience.

But.

But I think generally it was. It was more about kind of ages and sort of life stages, the different sort of life stages of fears that people experienced.

Nicole: Did you come away from the summit ready for a new research project? Do you have something that you're going to be following this up with? What's next for your work?

Carol: So, for me, what I really want to do, rather than launch into something else, is I want to really embed this into practice for myself, for my colleagues, for other coaches within the uk.

So to that end, I'm working with a mindset coach, Louise Pote, to put a program together at my ski centre in Lancashire around ski fear. So she'll deal with all the.

All the mindset elements and then I'll take them outside and we'll have outside sessions on ski technique, but also deploying her techniques.

No one can learn when they're scared.

It's just not possible.

But working together like that, then that's quite a powerful mix.

So we've got a few days planned in the UK for that and we're also planning to take a group to Italy to do that in a much more condensed way in one of the Dolomite resorts.

So I'm really looking forward to doing that.

Nicole: I met Louise at a trade show and her book was wonderful and beautiful illustrations. Again,

I love how you're continuing your work with. With her and Kimberly, what about you? What's next for you?

Kimberly: I think it's really about trying to visual make these messages visual. I did some work year before last with the professional ski instructors of Canada.

They asked me to help with some of their E learning, which was about kind of how people meet and greet and sort of start the initial relationships with, with their clients.

So there were some connections that I made at the World Women's Snow Sports Summit who've asked me to look at safety messages for their resorts.

So basically then it's like sort of taking their kind of character, their icon, and then taking that through a journey which basically then will make some specific messages which use their character to do bespoke safety messages for their resource.

And also, Carol and I are going to be continuing to raise the awareness of fear with the industry. We are going to be speaking at Spoiler alert for we've not previously announced it, but we're going to be speaking at two of the.

Two of the big snow shows in the UK in the autumn again to help people to open up this dialogue to help the individual skiers, but also to, you know, to raise this issue with the industry so that they're addressing this from a point of view of women.

Specific equipment,

holidays, teaching women's experiences right through. So that, so that basically we're just trying to kind of get this more on the agenda so that it can be addressed.

Nicole: Well, I'm so glad that you are. You both are out there helping women talk about this and move forward.

So do you have any notes before we kind of leave the fear topic for that mom who feels like she's really lost her nerve for skiing, she's lost her, her joy for skiing and she's thinking that she's going to sit this season out.

What would you tell her? How would you encourage her? Why don't we start with you, Kimberly?

Kimberly: I would say to try and break down the fear, to try to understand one of the interesting stats from the data, from the all Territories data. We had 30% of people had a fear of falling over,

but yet it was 60% fear was of injury or re. Injury. So there's a big gap there between somebody thinking, oh, I could hurt myself falling.

And this is where there's this gap about other people and about other people being too fast or perceived to be too contra. Too out of control.

So I think if, if, if the mum can break down, okay, what is it specifically you're afraid of? Is it afraid of fear of falling? Is it a fear of humiliation?

Is it a fear of, of being lost on the mountain or not being able to keep up with, with the group? And I think if you can break it down, then you can understand it.

And then basically,

then that is, then I would say then to work with a professional, whether that's a mindset coach to help you, whether from a mindset point of view, whether you feel you're not going to be fit enough, so then you're going to work with a fitness coach.

And if it's actually about the on snow experience,

then working with a ski instructor. And I think for a lot of women, not checking in so much with other people as to whether what they think they should do is okay,

because I think I see too often ski shows women will say to the men that are with them,

what do you think?

And prior to that they seem pretty, pretty keen. And you know, they kind of sort of, I think when they're not in their own mind, that's when,

when things can get sort of dissipated. You know, if a woman feels that that's what she wants and needs to do in order to be able to,

to go and enjoy this ski trip and to be able to, you know, get the most out of what we spend a lot of money to be able to do,

then that's it, do that.

Nicole: And what about you, Carol? What would you say to her?

Carol: I would recommend she think about where she's going to go.

So the obvious, the really well known super resorts, thinking of some French ones in particular, they're huge and absolutely rammed with people.

So maybe go to a different country, go to somewhere much smaller. So there's not the variety of peace. But if she doesn't need that,

then what's the point? Going somewhere bigger, go somewhere quieter with fewer people.

Go during term time if possible. I understand families with children, that might not be possible.

And go with people who have the same kind of outlook and want the same kind of experience.

So someone coming back from a fall or an experience that's really shaken the confidence.

Well, maybe you just want, you don't even want a week. You just need three or four days somewhere nice and quiet. Just cruise the blues, have plenty of coffee stops, sit in the cafes and have a nice time.

It's all about enjoying whichever element of the whole trip away it is. It's about enjoying yourself,

which hopefully will include some skiing, but you know, there's plenty else that we go for as well.

Nicole: Yeah, and enjoy that. Maybe you go, you set aside a half day to enjoy the hot tub and the sauna and you get a. You book a massage for yourself. I love that plan.

If she can get that massage and.

Carol: If the weather's rubbish and she doesn't want to go out, don't go out.

Nicole: Yeah, don't push it.

Well,

speaking of those after ski moments, we always love to end our interviews talking about the fun, super fun parts of skiing, which also include operes.

So do you apres after a day on the dry slopes? What does that look like? You know, what are your, your traditions there?

Carol: So after a session on the dry slope, yeah, go to the cafe,

get a hot drink, have a chat when I'm away.

Then in the evenings, it. It's. We just have a long, leisurely dinner, lots of conversation, maybe a glass of wine.

I'm not one for going out partying till three in the morning. I'm there mainly to ski.

Nicole: And what about you, Kimberly?

Kimberly: I think for me, generally, I will always get in and ice my knee to give it the best chance of being good for the next day.

Then probably a rest because mountain air generally kind of wipes out nowadays.

And then ideally be having a traditional alpine dinner and then, if I'm lucky, a bit of dancing.

I wouldn't dance for as long as I did when I was in my 20s. I don't need dance on my knees. I don't want to dance for that long. But, yeah, if it's possible to have a bit of a dance, then that would be a great after session for me.

Nicole: We'd love to know where can our listeners. We're going to share some links to the recaps that you've done on the study, but where can our listeners find more about you?

Kimberly, we'll start with you.

Kimberly: Yeah, so my website, inspirebykim.com that's where my. There's information there about my book, there's information about the ongoing snow sports project and that's really kind of where sort of the Fear project, where we share, share the results, the press releases and things.

That's kind of sort of like the online space for it. And obviously people can connect with us on LinkedIn.

I'm also on social media on Instagram in particular and Facebook,

so. So, yeah, so I'm always keen to connect and to hear about people's experiences.

Nicole: And Carol, what about you? What if our. Some of our listeners want to get, you know, personal instruction for from you or find out more about what you're doing? Where can we find you?

Carol: The UK is very parochial. I'm in the northwest of England, Ski Rosendale I don't have my own website. It's on my to do list. I really should have a website and I don't.

So all our all our work about fear is on Kim's website, as she said.

Or I'm available on LinkedIn.

Just DrCarol Porter and happy to talk and teach anybody that approaches.

Nicole: Well, thank you ladies so much. We are really grateful for the work that you're doing shining a light on this really important topic, and we hope that more women get in touch with what they're feeling and then work towards more joy on the slopes.

So thank you so much.

Kimberly: Thank you so much.

Nicole: Hey ski moms.

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