The Ski Moms Discuss Ways to Get More Families Skiing

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Welcome to the Ski Moms Podcast, where we dive into the experiences and insights of skiing families. Today, we’re excited to share the findings from our Ski Moms Happiness Survey.

Survey Overview:

• The survey reached out to 1,000 women to understand the challenges and barriers they face in the skiing community.
• Our goal is to identify issues and advocate for changes that make skiing more inclusive and enjoyable for families.

Key Findings:

1. Affordable Lessons: A staggering 94% of respondents indicated they would ski or snowboard more often if affordable group lessons were available for their children.
2. Breastfeeding Facilities: About 59% of moms reported difficulties finding a clean, quiet place to breastfeed at ski areas.
3. On-Mountain Childcare: An overwhelming 87% of participants expressed that access to on-mountain childcare would encourage them to ski more.

Industry Insights:

• The survey revealed a significant gap in how the ski industry supports families:
  • Only 44% of moms feel the industry cares about supporting families.

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Transcript

Speaker A: Welcome to the Ski Moms Fun podcast.

Speaker B: Where your hosts, Nicole and Sarah. Hi, ski moms. It's Nicole here. You might have heard this message in our podcast feed.

Speaker A: The episode you are requesting requires a subscription. Please follow the link in the show notes to subscribe and listen.

Speaker B: Now, we're not trying to annoy you, we swear. It's simply a way for us to offset the production costs of running this podcast. Believe it or not, Sarah and I bootstrapped the entire operation. For just $3 a month, you get access to ad free episodes and bonus content. It's our way to say thank you for supporting us. This week, Sarah and I are breaking down the results from the 2023 Ski mom's Happiness survey. The child care survey started as an idea about, really two years ago, and I kept hearing comments from the industry insiders when I would meet with them that, well, you know, it's so expensive to do childcare. It's so hard to hire. We're not really sure if we can make that investment. And, you know, as a mom, it was just exhausting to hear that because I know finding childcare is hard. You know, finding childcare is hard. And it really just seemed to me that it was just people kind of throwing their hands up in the air saying it's too hard, you know? And meanwhile, there's all of this data showing that our sport isn't growing. It's really hard to get into, and single moms, too. So all of these things kind of added up, and it's like the blame. It seems so clear to me that if we can get more families skiing, the sport is going to grow and it's going to be a bigger pool of people, more diverse people. So, putting my business hat on, I just was thinking that we needed some data to collect to present this, to really show hard and fast numbers of would you ski more if you had the things that I thought were standing between ski moms and spending more time on the slopes. So I reached out to Mabel's labels. They've been our number one champion, really, before we had a podcast, I said, I'm thinking of starting a podcast. And they said, here's some money. And then I said, I'm thinking about doing this survey. And they said, we'd love to sponsor it. I worked with you to come up with the questions, and we wanted to make it simple. I mean, I think your take on surveys was really good. I mean, do you want to give some of what you thought would work well?

Speaker A: Well, I think we should go through some of the questions, but I just, I think we wanted it to be, you know, moms don't have a lot of time. We wanted to get right to the point. We wanted to make sure that we were able to get the right level of information. And now that we have it, from over 1000 ski moms, we're able to see some really incredible and powerful trends and be able to talk about it in a way that, like you said, going to the industry and saying, we now have data. It's not just a feeling. It's not just an idea or like a comment on a post. It's real data and it's staggering. It's. When you look at the data in this report, you don't have to do a lot of diving deep into these data points to see the trends. That's for sure.

Speaker B: I love, because I probably come to things with a little too much passion and I get a little worked up and you are much more analytical about it. Okay, let's keep these questions focused and let's not do too much. Let's really take a targeted approach to that. So we're such a good team in that way. We started the survey with, first of all, are you a skier and do you have kids? And it was really interesting that 78% of them had children under six. So this is the target zone. You know, these are the people with the young kids that we really want to get into this sport. We had some moms with kids over six as well. But I love that the busiest moms who are really in the thick of it showed up for this survey.

Speaker A: Yeah. They're the ones that need the childcare and want their voices heard the most. I think over six you can get them into lessons. And I know lessons are also part of this, but specifically childcare, I think over six you can get them out there on the hill with you. A little bit easier for the day. Yeah.

Speaker B: And then everybody skied. Nobody answered the survey that didn't ski some ski and snowboard some. We had only 2% of snowboarders because we don't ever try to exclude them intentionally, but it's kind of in the name. And frankly, I just don't see that many tiny snowboarders out there. It tends to be the littles are on skis.

Speaker A: Right. I think that definitely seems a little easier for kids to learn skiing, but I've seen some tiny riders. Now, the other thing, when you look at the data, looking at a pie chart that says that of our respondents, 77% of the moms have children under six and 23 have children over six. And, I mean, that's, that's like, you know, quite a split there. So mostly under six. And I was wondering if. I was wondering if there's something, some meaning in that. In that the moms with kids over six, are they not skiing anymore because they couldn't get their kids out there when they were little and they've started doing other activities. And so to the point about the downward trend in overall participation in the ski industry, I'm wondering if there's a little bit more into this that we don't see as many kids over six in this pool because we didn't start them little and they went on, and now they're playing soccer and now they're playing, you know, doing other activities because we didn't get them into the skiing pipeline because their parents couldn't when they were little for multiple reasons.

Speaker B: Yeah, maybe that's the next survey is really looking at the habits of the moms for skiing. But then we kind of jump in to childcare and, you know, that was really where my brain was starting with this was how many moms are sitting out multiple seasons because they're pregnant and then they have an infant and they're breastfeeding or feeding? You know, infants can't ski, so they're kind of in the lodge, and then maybe they get that one kind of up and running at some point and maybe they have another kid. You know, it can be almost a decade of needing help, depending on how many kids you have. So that was really where I wanted the whole survey to focus on. I asked about, have you used on mountain childcare? And I was pretty surprised that 50% have. It's definitely getting used already.

Speaker A: Yeah. But you have to wonder, did 50% of the respondents have used on mountain childcare? But we know it's not available many places, so if it was available, we could possibly see a much higher rate. But a lot of the mountains we know now don't have it. And I'm obviously, that's like the whole crux of this discussion, but even that data point is, you know, there's a lot behind it because it might just not be available. They're not choosing not to use it. They don't have the option in a lot of these mountains.

Speaker B: Yeah. So then I loved this follow up, and it was really talking about what's most important to you about childcare. And I admit I was shocked. I just hear so much all the time about how expensive this board is, blah, blah, blah. But cost was a distant third on this list. I want to, like, clang a bell so loudly that it was location and convenience. So basically, I don't want to tell mountains they can charge whatever they want. But parents said location, convenience. Number one, far and away. Number two was availability. They just want the hours. And then number three was cost. So they will show up and use this service if you give it to them.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, if it means you can ski for the day. As a mom with little kids, you look at it as part of the cost of you getting out there, right? No different than a lyft ticket or the rentals.

Speaker B: It's.

Speaker A: You're saying. You're right. They're not saying they would pay anything, but that is. That is down the list. And if it means that they could ski, they'll probably look at it as a discretionary, you know, treat here and there to themselves so that they can. They can get out there. And then maybe they get out there with their friends or with their partner. And I think that's the other thing. A lot of times we hear about moms and dads saying, you know, they do this swap back and forth in the lodge because there is no childcare. That's not as much fun. You really want to be out there with your partner, with your friends, and you can't do that if you're handing the baby off back and forth every few hours. No.

Speaker B: And then. So then we get to the next data point that 87% said that they would have skied more if they had access to on mountain childcare. So this is where the industry needs to pay attention. So 87% said they would have added additional skier days. So that means more money on hot cocoa. That means more money maybe on lessons for the older kids. It means maybe more money in lodging. It means, you know, maybe more money on gear. All of the things that they make great money on, they've lost out on. And then I followed up on Instagram. This is not in the survey, but one of the moms said, you should really ask how many days they would add. So I just did a quick Instagram poll, and the 70% said they would have added 20 or more days a season. And that was just staggering. So that data point, we only had 100 people answered that survey, but still 100 women answered, and 70 of them said we would have added three weeks of skiing to our season. I mean, let's just say it's, you know, 100 extra dollars per day. That is a meaningful jump in revenues.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm surprised it went that high. Maybe part of that is, you know, maybe that may not as realistic that.

Speaker B: May have been sampled by it. Yeah, I agree that may have been.

Speaker A: But also, you know, when you don't have the. I was thinking about how little kids get interested in anything, and when they're at a mountain, even before they can get up in these boots or get out there in a lesson, they see people doing it, they get interested in it, they ask about it, they look forward to it, they want to go back. And, you know, they become that pipeline of the next generation of snow sport lovers. And right now, you know, they're not going to see it because they're not going to be there. You know, I have a rental ski house, and when families come, a lot of times they ask me for a local sitter and that's, that is a great option. And I'll connect them with someone so that their child, you know, their toddler can, can stay at the house with the babysitter. But I don't think that's really building the pipeline because I do think you want the kid to, to have that hot cocoa and know how great those are and, you know, see the waffle cabin and see that. And maybe there's other activities, too, the tubing, things like that that you can do when you're little. Again, more revenue getting to the mountain, even if that's a few hours. And then they go into the childcare, but they're just there and they're seeing the culture of snow sports and skiing and what it's all about. And I guarantee you that means that they're going to be asking to go back and when are they going to be old enough to scrape.

Speaker B: Yeah, and it's such a good point also about, like, they get used to bundling up, they get used to being cold. They get used to walking on snow. Maybe they go outside to see, like, the little, you know, I remember when my daughter did daycare at solitude, they just, they would bring them out in the snow once they, you know, obviously they're able to walk. This isn't like for infants, but it was still getting them indoctrinated to the whole experience. So I think it goes a long WaY. Yeah. So the next question is a very low hanging fruit was have you ever struggled to find a clean, quiet place to breastfeed or feed your baby or pump? 60% said they have struggled to find the place. I would say the 41% who said no probably didn't go to a mountain because there are so few that exist. I know Stowe just got one of those mamava pods, but I mean, there is no place designated to breastfeed at most of these resorts. It's you got to find Like a corner in the lodge, and then you got to take off all the layers or you're going to the bathroom with all the slush on the floor. It's really a dehumanizing experience. And that is something would be so inexpensive for mountains to fix that. This one just kind of tweaks me. And I'm sorry I even had to put it in the survey, but there you are.

Speaker A: Yeah, but you're right. The ones that said no just probably didn't go when they were nursing or pumping.

Speaker B: So the next one was really inspired by a trip to the Middlebury snowbowl. I didn't even know these things existed, but I went upstairs to just kind of check out the lodge. I was going to take a picture of the downstairs from the upstairs. And over in this corner, there is this adorable space. It's got books, it's got a few toddler toys. It had low couches with some nice rugs. I don't know, it was maybe, I don't know, 300 sqft, I'm guessing. And this was the designated toddler station at Middlebury. And I was just thinking, wow, what a great, super easy way to support families. Because Middlebury snowballs is definitely one of those places where people are swapping. The dad's taking some turns, then he's coming in, then the mom's taking some turns. Or maybe it's a grandparent there. But I thought, oh, my gosh, every mountain should have one of these. And of course, 90% of moms said they would use this space had it been available.

Speaker A: Yeah, we've all seen the giant skiers and snowboarders come in and they can't even see the little toddlers on the floor. And they're in those giant ski boots, stepping on their little toes. I mean, it's. It must be terrifying to be a toddler in a ski lodge because it's terrifying for me. So can you imagine all those people bundled up and they've got masks on and big, heavy ski boots? I mean, it's. It's not a relaxing environment for the, for the little kids either. There's nowhere for them to spread out. It's really loud. Always in this, in the lodges with just the clunking and stuff. So the way Middlebury has it, where it is upstairs and removed, does make it feel. I'd say more peaceful. And it just. Yeah, they can just spread out a bit. They can sit on a rug. I mean, think of, I mean, even just, you would never sit on the floor in a ski lodge. And it's also fun because there'll be other little kids there. So it's kind of that in between. It's not childcare. You've got to be there, but you have at least a space. Yeah.

Speaker B: And you can make other friends with families who have children the same ages who are probably going to be going through the programs together as time goes on or setting up ski gates, ski days, all of the things that maybe you don't join a race program. You don't make a friend like you and I have, but they can make connections on the mountain and build community, which is so, so important. And these moms and dads are really hungering for that sense of community.

Speaker A: Yeah. And even though, I mean, we were doing the race program, but I think if we were somewhere like Middlebury and we had met week over week and our kids and we all got to know each other, I could see saying, I'll watch your girls, you and your husband go out and do a few runs, and then we'll swap. And that. Exactly like you're saying, that community where you get to know people and, and you kind of can, can share in it because it does take a village. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I was also thinking, for mountains, this is a very low liability situation because they're not, they're, they don't have to get childcare. You know, they can put a little sign up that says, you know, please use this base cleanup after yourself. I would imagine it's a ski sock. You know, you'd leave your boots, like, at the edge of it. And I'm sure people would supply, you know, their board books that their kids aren't using anymore and toddler toys and, you know, maybe they pay for the mountain, might pay for like, a diaper changing station. That was another thing that I didn't think to ask. But a number of moms brought up in the comments that good luck changing a diaper at a ski mountain as well. They're talking about having to change them on the floor with the slush and the french fries.

Speaker A: It's so hard. We're not making it easy for the moms. Make it easier for us, please.

Speaker B: I mean, we're not asking for much. Those are kind of the categories for the littles. Next, we're moving into lessons. Now, this is more. I do understand that this is a little bit more price sensitive because, you know, you've gotten past the keeping your kids alive. I think we're willing to pay anything for some level of safety when the kids are smaller. But then when it comes to giving them lessons, that does seem like we've got a little more price sensitivity. We were talking about, would you ski more if you had affordable lessons or more child more opportunities for snow sports teaching for your kids? So here when we ask this question, the number one factor was cost, then availability and then locations. I do kind of understand why cost becomes important here because if you've got, you know, three kids and some of the mountains, as I've been researching, you know, some of it is $300 a day. So you're looking at, you know, $1,000 per kid for a full day of lessons. I, you know, I understand that that is going to leave people out from doing lessons. What are your thoughts?

Speaker A: I think when I hear it that way, I mean, that's not on top of, if you rented on top of the live pass the lunch. I mean, for a family with three kids or, you know, five, I think it just gets to the point where you just. You can't justify it.

Speaker B: No. And there's. There's got to be ways for industry to subsidize this in some way to offset it, because I do feel like if they lower this number, the cost of this, it will grow the sport. Maybe this has to be a loss leader. In the grocery store, they have deals and sales that get people in when they can get their milk at a super low price. Or I know eggs have gone up so much recently. So if they price the eggs on a sale price, you're going to get them in your door. Maybe competitive pricing on lessons is the way to go here to make it the loss leader for mountains that it's advertised and it's promoted on a lot of sites. You've got to go on a forensic hunt to find out what the costs of lessons are and where they are and how to sign up. It is not an easy find.

Speaker A: Yeah, it can be really unclear, and it might change by day and month, and it gets really confusing thinking about, again, this is a way to build the pipeline. And it's also, honestly, I've seen some really unsafe situations where you have skiers that put on the skis and go up and they've never had a lesson. And I've seen them crash into people. I've seen some really, they don't even understand how dangerous it is. And there should be some sort of intro that's very affordable, that helps people understand at least the basics, you know, on and off the lift, how to stop a few of those things. I saw a person come down at Mohawk once. I couldn't stop college student, Ivy League, and she just went right into a man walking at the bottom of the melon. An older man just crashed right into him, took him to the ground. And I just thought, you know, that just looks so dangerous. And maybe if there was a way to say this is your first, you know, when you're renting, if this is your first time, we really recommend this. It's only another $25 or whatever. And we're going to show you the basics before you get on that lift and hurt someone or yourself.

Speaker B: You're so right. The know the code. It's sort of ten or twelve rules. Kids aren't learning that in a vacuum. They've got to be exposed to that from an instructor and their parents, if their parents are instructors. But if you're learning from a parent who's kind of learning parallel to you, and we did hear a fair amount of that, that people learn together from YouTube videos because they couldn't afford the lessons, well, they're never even going to learn the code of safety doing it that way if they're just sort of life hacking it through, figuring it out. You're right. The safety of everybody on the mountain suffers when kids aren't taught the proper rules of skiing and riding. Exactly.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: I mean, we talked to so many people on the podcast, Sarah, who clipped those coupons. There were at least two women who started because they got a free lesson coupon in their local Pennysaver. And that's how they've now created a lifetime of skiing. If the industry can build more of those in, I think it'd be fantastic. Now, some mountains are. I was at Maple Ski Ridge, this tiny mountain in New York, and they had a package. It was $100 with boots and a lesson. And great. You know, that is something that's attainable for most families. But $1,000 a day for three kids, that's just not going to happen. And every mountain should have something for a brand new skier to figure out how to navigate the day safely at an affordable price. So then we kind of got into that data, and then, would you have skied or written more if you had access to affordable group lessons for your children? And 94% said yes. So, I mean, that that's not shocking. I think I was a little bit more shocked about the childcare one than this one, because we've been hearing loud and clear from families that the pricing really stops them from adding those multiple days at ski resorts and even picking it up compared to so many other sports, as you were saying, like soccer or basketball, that are competing because it's just too expensive. Because if the lessons are expensive, those weekend programs are thousands and thousands of dollars. I mean, it's eye watering.

Speaker A: I think that some of those programs at the smaller mountains, you can get some more affordable weekend, you know, full season weekend programs. And if you really look at the. The fact that it's over a whole season every weekend, it's still probably a hard check to write. It's still large. But I think it actually, there is some value in that, for sure, versus the one day spending $1,000 on one day of lessons.

Speaker B: Then we moved into general feel for the industry. How do you feel the industry is treating moms? How do you feel they're looking out for our interests? How do you feel like they're looking at us as consumers? And so the question was, the ski industry as a whole cares about supporting families and making skiing accessible. So I learned this term from one of the ski moms. She said, oh, you're. You know, the data's even more staggering if you do a top two analysis. And I was like, ooh, tell me more. She said, will you take. So this was in a scale of zero to ten. And then the people who agree in the top two, so the people who agree with the statement, it was only 3.7% of moms agree that the ski family ski industry cares about families. And that is just sad.

Speaker A: Those are not. Those summers are not looking good for the ski industry. That is very sad.

Speaker B: That is something that, I mean, you've got to be able to do better than 3.7. And I was interviewing a mom for some of these follow up podcasts. She was so excited that their mountain had added a punch card for, on the 10th coffee. You get a free coffee. And I think it was. Had something to do with the ski school. They gave these cards, and she said, I cut my. She got, like, three or four free copies at the end of the season because she had her punch card. And I was like, is that what we've come to is like giving a mom a free coffee at the end of her ten other purchases that she's made? But I was just thinking, wow, have coffee at ski school when the moms have finished the flop. Sweat of dropping these kids off and finding parking. Just give them a coffee before they leave, have a little, like, area where they can catch their breath and, you know, maybe go to the bathroom, have a coffee. But it's just. It's dehumanizing. A lot of these experiences.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, a lot of these feast bowls, there's not even a place for you to stand and catch your breath. You're just kind of pushed out another door, off a, you know, off into another area. It is not welcoming, and it is not comfortable. Definitely that whole process from off. But those numbers are very sad. Those numbers are very sad.

Speaker B: There's so much room for improvement. They could basically do anything, and it would be perceived as better than what is currently offered.

Speaker A: Yeah, it would be hard to do worse.

Speaker B: And then there was a follow up one.

Speaker A: The ski industry as a whole is doing everything they can to support families.

Speaker B: Oh, this was even worse.

Speaker A: Even sadder. 2.4%. I mean, agree with that.

Speaker B: And some of the funny follow up interviews the moms were telling me about, and I forgot about this. How far the bathrooms are from the learning areas and how many pea soaked snow suits have happened because they put the learning area so far away without any, like, satellite bathrooms that accidents happen or. And. Or the kid misses half the lesson if they make it to the bathroom, because they've got to go so far to go to the bathroom.

Speaker A: Right. And get out of all their stuff. Yeah, I mean. I mean, that's what we loved at Breckenridge, right. When we saw those ski school, they had the bathrooms right there, right on the mountain, right in the learning area. I mean, it definitely means a lot more time learning and a lot less time. I mean, if you think about, you know, even at the. Some of the little smaller areas, getting in from the magic carpet or the bunny slope into the. Getting off your stuff, all of that, you're. You're at least probably losing 20 minutes at a minimum of a few hour less than. That's material.

Speaker B: Yeah, that is. That. That's a huge deal. And we did. I did want to say there were some great mountains called out. We mentioned Middlebury, snowbowl. I heard so many great things about alta, ski areas, childcare, how it was affordable, it was convenient. They just. So many people had great things to say. And I did want to mention Bromley Mountain, at the end of the season, did a ski moms free day. So.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: If you showed up with a kid, I mean, I just had to grab one from the parking lot. You got a free pass. So I was so excited to see Bromley do that. That was. That's the kind of recognition that goes a long way. And it was at the end of the season, so moms are going to remember that.

Speaker A: Yeah, that was smart. It definitely goes a long way and it gets some people out there that wouldn't have gone otherwise. Yeah. And now they're thinking about it for next year.

Speaker B: And I know Steamboat put a huge investment into their child care center now that is for employees. They are looking to expand it to offer it to guests as well. Lessons do start young at steamboat. I think there's something for, like, two and a half year olds, and steamboat does. The littles are the close. The drop offs is the closest for the little people. And then as you get older, it's like further away. So I would say steamboat is a pretty good setup as well. I feel like this data was very illuminating, not terribly surprising. I would say the things that surprised me was that cost was not a concern for childcare. Could hire very professional people to staff that, and I think families would use it. And then I think the next step for me is really just seeing how many more days women would add and then trying to figure out what affordable looks like for different families. Because affordable to you, and I might mean something different than affordable to a mom from Michigan who skis at Brighton Mountain. Getting your finger on that and then really translating it for people in the industry to show them that it's going to mean this many more dollars in your pocket. So I'm glad I did it. I'm again, super thankful for Mabel's, for underwriting it and for the thousand moms who answered it. And we'd love to know what we should take on next in comments. So reach out to Sarah and to me. We're going to leave our information in the show notes, but we'd love to gather more data because the moms want to be heard.

Speaker A: Yeah, we want you all to be heard.

Speaker B: And if you want to hear more on this topic, six moms joined us for long format interviews. They joined me on Zoom and we were able to really kind of dive into best practices at a few mountains and some of the real world frustrations because again, my kids are now 16 and almost 19, and Sarah's got similar. We forget what was going on in the trenches. It's like after you give birth, you forget how much trauma you just endured. I think the same thing happens for ski moms. You just let go what it actually looked like trying to get those littles to the lodge and up and running.

Speaker A: Yeah, but we can't forget. We have to remember and keep bringing this up and hope that these messages get heard.

Speaker B: And if you're from the industry, we would love to hear from you about what is stopping you and what the priorities are. I mean, I think Sarah and I might start throwing things if we see more multimillion dollar, high speed eight packs being put into mountains that don't have childcare. We might have to start picketing.

Speaker A: Don't underestimate the scheme. Arms.

Speaker B: Yeah, we could block the eight pack. We could link arms.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: No lifts until childcare is provided.

Speaker A: Our next phase of activism. Yeah.

Speaker B: Or sit ins. Sit ins in the lodge. Okay. Well, thank you so much for Sarah, for all of your wisdom and sometimes raining me in when I get too agitated and I do need. I need to stay out of the comments sometimes.

Speaker A: Yeah. Don't get taken down. Don't go down the rabbit hole. But I'm really glad that you, that you won that battle. I can tell you feel good about that. I do feel good.

Speaker B: Good. That was. That was.

Speaker A: It's really hard to win an argument with a ski bob.

Speaker B: In this week's bonus podcast, we are talking about an experience I had with an online troll who thought that the dream of childcare was impossible and frankly, unnecessary. Let's hear how I took him down. If you're not yet a subscriber, now is the perfect time to sign up for just dollar three a month and show your support for the ski moms. Hey, ski moms, we're hoping you'll give us a review on the Apple podcast platform. It'll help us get to the top of the list and share our stories with more ski moms out there. And speaking of sharing, please take the time and share this episode or one of your other favorite episodes with one ski mom so she feels included and invited and celebrated this season and for all seasons to come. Thank you so much for being a part of our community. Thank you so much for listening to the Ski Moms Fun podcast. Please be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Head to the ski momsfun.com website to check out our swag and find out more about our community. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at ski momsfun. We'll be back next week with more interviews and insights. Thanks, Snow.